cyqsimon
本帖最后由 a20001017 于 2014-1-24 11:38 编辑

Jeb: Mob farms are item dupes in my opinion, but I'm not an idiot who ignores a 1500 posts long uproar on reddit, http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecr....../

Jeb:我个人认为刷怪厂是克隆物品的行为(言下之意就是bug),但是我不会傻到连reddit上那1500个回帖的抱怨都不去理会的。



解释一下此次事件的起因:

Mojang计划在最新的快照里做一下更改:

铁傀儡只有在由玩家杀死时会掉落铁
僵尸猪人只有在由玩家杀死时会掉落金(粒/锭)


这个决定导致玩家社区的许多人产生了不满,普遍认为这个改动妨碍了Minecraft后期的自动化可能性,同时也违背了Minecraft作为一款沙盒游戏的主旨。

(Reddit翻译)


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不满已经导致了Reddit(国外的一个综合性论坛,需要爬墙)上有人发出了这个帖子,截至2014/01/21/12:00已经获得了1650+评论

I loved it when hoppers were introduced into the game because I love the automation of the game right now. With the villager, golem, and pigmen nerfs, tons of automation has been taken away from Minecraft. What sucks about this is that I feel that Mojang is trying to force us to play the game in a certain way even though we could have chosen to play that way in any earlier version of the game. Removing the possibility to create farms and removing the possibility to automate tedious processes is going to be bad for the game because it starts to take all the possibility away from a sandbox. If we are playing a sandbox game, why aren't we allowed to make what we want?

翻译一下:

我非常喜欢漏斗加入游戏,因为我也非常喜欢这给游戏带来的自动化。但是,最近针对村民、(铁)傀儡、僵尸猪人的修改导致Minecraft失去了很多的自动化元素。很差劲的是,我感觉Mojang现在正在逼迫我们以一定的方式玩Minecraft。相比现在,以前的游戏更加自由。移除制作刷怪厂的可能性以及自动化那些烦人的工作的可能性,正在一点点的从Minecraft身上移除各种沙盒游戏的本质。如果我们玩的的确是一个沙盒游戏,那为何我们被限制无法做我们想做的呢?

接下来是一篇极其精彩的回帖,由于篇幅过长,我就不句句翻译了,概述一下:

Without redstone and automation, increasing your power and resources runs out real fast. You go from fists to wooden tools to stone tools in a matter of a minute. Your first iron ingots could happen in the first 10 minutes, and you can have a full set of iron tools and armor inside of an hour if you want. Wheat, livestock, and a full set of agricultural stuff can happen inside of another hour. Diamonds might take a little longer, but you can have basic diamond tools, some nice enchanted stuff, and a potion brewing set-up in an afternoon.
And then, what? At that point, there's not much more forward progress to make. Sure you can spend a lot of time grinding wither skeletons to get enough skulls for the wither (and it is a major, major grind, not really interesting or fun). You can find a stronghold and go kill the dragon. And then what do you do with yourself? Make some cool houses or castles, explore. But if you want to feel like you're continuing to gain power, to become the master of your realm, to reshape the world and bend the landscape to suit your needs, there's not much else to do.
This is where I think the automation and various farms come in. They make it possible to have more satisfying goals, more of a sense of ongoing progress. It takes time, work, intelligence, a keen understanding of the way the game works, and often a considerable amount of travelling and exploring for the necessary components (villagers, cats, large quantities of obsidian, etc) in order to make really epic machines like high-output gold farms, iron farms, mob-sorters to make auto-breaking farms with creepers, music disc farms, let alone something like an obsidian farm utilizing a wither. There's an element of excitement and danger in a lot of these things, which can go hideously wrong in hilarious fashion with the slightest miscalculation. They expand the concept of crafting beyond a 3X3 grid into a whole, rich world of redstone and mob-pathing logic and spawning rules, and allow the player to make rich, complex, dynamic, functional, and ultimately profitable creations. To me, this is the real game of Minecraft. Digging a bunch of tunnels underground to find some diamonds is a fairly boring chore I do to allow me to play the real, rich, satisfying game that is making large complex functional structures. Lighting up caves and digging the iron out of the walls is reasonably entertaining for an hour or so, but it gets real old real fast, but it gets me started and outfitted until I can make an iron farm. Building a nice, aesthetic house or a picturesque farm or a seemingly defensible castle is all well and good, but building a structure that does something, that accomplishes some goal and help fulfill my needs it really awesome.
It's frustrating to feel like Mojang looks down on pretty much all of the aspects of the game that I most love, and that they're hell bent on making the game smaller, poorer, and less interesting.

概述:

对于一个老玩家来说,玩一个下午的Minecraft就升级到钻石时代并不是什么难事,但是之后呢?之后你能做什么?去杀凋零、末影龙么?再之后呢?就没了吗?作为一个想要继续向食物链顶层进发的玩家,还能做一些别的什么事吗?
而自动化的刷怪厂/农厂就可以是下一步:这些结构需要玩家对Minecraft的机制有深刻的了解,而且也需要花很多时间和精力收集资源。这个过程中存在着一种对于危险的无畏精神,毕竟一旦出一些微小的差错后果就可能是灾难性的。这使得合成的概念扩展到3x3以外,允许玩家利用对于红石以及游戏机制的了解,创造出很多结合多元、复杂、活力、实用、利益为一体的巧妙机构。对我而言,这才是Minecraft的意义所在。为了铁和金不辞辛劳的挖矿很快就变得枯燥无味了,这时,做一个刷铁/金厂有意思得多。制作一些很宏伟的装饰性建筑确实也很厉害,但是相比较这些建筑而言,刷怪厂让我觉得更吸引人,因为我做出了一样在Minecraft里有实际意义的东西。我真的很伤心,看到Mojang正在移除所有我认为有意义的事。这让游戏变得更加局限、无趣。

其他人的一些观点:

Exactly. One of my favorite aspects of MC is that you can go from being a hunter/gatherer to a farmer, and eventually to a titan of industry. Means of production such as iron/gold farms provide the resources necessary to create an proper civilization.
There's something really magical about going from punching trees to building entire cities filled with skyscrapers in vanilla MC (albeit it can take literally hundreds of hours to reach that type of end game).

翻译:

非常赞同。我最欣赏Minecraft的地方,无非就是你可以从一个猎人/资源收集者通过整个游戏的进程,最终变成一代工业(译者注:请勿与工业mod混淆)泰坦。刷铁、金厂都是向这个方向努力的途中不可或缺的获得大量资源的手段。
在原版Minecraft中,从打树到建造充满高楼大厦的城市给人带来一种非常神奇的感觉(尽管这可能需要成百上千小时的游戏)。

What's so "end gamey" about them? An iron farm just requires a village, and gold farms require a redstone-to-obsidian converter. They can be made well before fighting the Enderdragon, let alone finding a stronghold, and whether they make said farms or not, a player should ALWAYS be encouraged to play however they want in any genre of game, otherwise, without the element of choice and interaction, you might as well be watching someone else play it.
I think we really just need a good, clear and detailed idea of the game design philosophy behind Minecraft that Mojang can promise to adhere to. Nothing that applies to creative; I view creative mode as a sort of debugging and "do whatever" kind of deal. I'm just saying, obviously we want to survive in Survival mode. But is there any point to limiting the means by which we survive?
EDIT: Sick of people misinterpreting my definition of "endgame". The Endgame is where you're near the END of the GAME, as in right about to get to the credits, or any other goal that, once achieved, means that you've overcome what the developer intended as the biggest challenge to the protagonist. The Ender Dragon might be easy for people that know what they're doing, but it was CLEARLY INTENDED to be difficult to the casual player.

翻译:

这些资源厂真的很有游戏结尾的特点么?一个刷铁厂无非需要一个村子,而一个刷金厂无非需要一个红石=>黑曜石转换器。这些在杀死末影龙之前完全都可以做到。不管是去寻找下界要塞还是去制造刷怪厂,玩家总是应该被鼓励去以他们想要的方式玩这个游戏。要不然的话,如果游戏失去了让玩家做出选择的余地,那自己玩和看着别人玩又有什么不一样呢?
我觉得,我们唯一需要的,就是对Minecraft最根本哲理的了解,而Mojang也要保证能够维护这个哲理。当然,这些对于创造模式都没什么影响。我个人认为,创造模式更像是一个debug和”为所欲为“的环境。我只是想说,生存模式的主要目的无非就是生存下去,但是又为何要限制我们生存下去的方式呢?
EDIT:这么多人错误理解“游戏结尾”的实际意思,我快烦死了。“游戏结尾”的实际意思是当你接近“游戏的终结”的时候,而“游戏的终结”的意思是那些游戏开发者认为是最难实现的游戏目标,比如看到“credit”以及杀死末影龙之类的。当然,对于知道自己在做什么的(译者注:也就是有经验的)玩家来说,屠龙可能并不是很难,但很明显,末影龙对于一个很普通的玩家来说,明显是被当做一个不容易实现的目标而设计的。






*从(Reddit翻译)开始到此,禁止转载!

于是就产生了Jeb上面在Twitter上的回帖。

写完这篇文章,我个人感觉蛮伤感的,好像Mojang正在慢慢剥夺我对Minecraft最初的那份热情。

大家觉得呢?以后的版本里是否应该允许自动刷怪厂呢?

有能力的自己爬墙告诉Mojang,没能力的告诉我,我会有选择性的转告Mojang。

毒蛇
本帖最后由 毒蛇 于 2014-1-21 12:13 编辑

这是什么意思?复杂啊,算了,我是这个观点:刷怪塔和刷沙机不是一个性质,后者是通过BUG复制方块,前者是通过特性来巧妙的获得物品,当然,mojang这么做有自己的道理,毕竟mojang已经宽容地允许mod、盗版等事物的流行,再不限制原版也就该遭殃了。可是,建一个刷怪塔远远比挖矿杀怪有意思,刷怪塔能证明玩家近入了高科技时代,而杀怪只是停留在血腥时代,真正的生存时代。好比我们社会,为什么要有牧场?不能见到一只猪杀一只吗?当然不行,效率太低。另外,刷铁机是MC中最难搞的工程之一,你得把村民弄上高塔,再设计各种传送装置(我是说defanive),并用岩浆杀死他,你要是人杀,他的血量足以你砍10下的。你以为搭一堆地狱门容易?不可能,辛辛苦苦搭完地狱门,结果没用了,这有意思吗?另外,生存的目标就是变成像现实一样的美好生活,不是像猿人一样的所谓的“美好生活”,能吃上熟肉就得。我们需要发展、进步,这才是最关键的!
纯手码字,啊~翻不了墙啊~

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